Saturday, October 22, 2011
Changing BOE minutes?
There have been changes to the BOE minutes after the meeting is over with the explanation that the minutes needed to be 'clarified.'. Isn't this against Robert's Rules? Can a Board member go back and change a statement? I've never heard of this happening in the past.
Reminder that all topics are still up for discussion. Add comments to any topic you wish.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Here is the authority from the Roberts Rules of Order Website:
ReplyDelete[ http://robertsrules.com/faq.html#15 ]
Question 15:
Isn't it necessary to summarize matters discussed at a meeting in the minutes of that meeting in order for the minutes to be complete?
Answer:
Not only is it not necessary to summarize matters discussed at a meeting in the minutes of that meeting, it is improper to do so. Minutes are a record of what was done at a meeting, not a record of what was said. [RONR (11th ed.), p. 468, ll. 16-18; see also p. 146 of RONRIB.]
I sure hope Sue Hayne and the Red Apples read that!!!
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty sad that for years (until one new member arrived who actually knows Roberts Rules) BoE minutes didn't follow the Rules.
ReplyDeleteLet's not even get started on Haynie trying to change the minutes to reflect things she didn't even say.
Haynie appears to be trouble with a capital T. Why would we want her friends on the Board as well? Can you imagine that, if they get elected, there will be a waiting line of apples trying to change the BoE minutes AFTER the meeting! Of course that's after the apples finish complimenting Marks on the incredible job she's doing. What a disaster!
ReplyDeleteLet's put aside the homage to Robert Preston and The Music Man (along with the vitriole) and ask if there is a reason why the Board of Education, alone among City Boards and Commissions, creates a written record which rivals the Congressional Record.
ReplyDeleteWe do need to consider the cost of compiling and correcting extensive meeting records.
We also need to appreciate that this practice has been a long-standing BoE tradition.
My opinion, as I've stated several times in the past, is that the minutes need to strictly follow Robert's Rules and serve as an indication of who was in attendance and the votes taken.
There were apples up on high, but I never saw them swinging, till there was Sue...We got trouble...Right here in Norwalk City...trouble,trouble trouble..(sorry, Steve, couldn't resist) Yes, I agree that Robert's Rules should be in effect.
ReplyDeletePrior to the Freedom of Information Act, many minutes were what would be called "Action minutes", i.e., who was there and what votes were taken. However, that has changed over the last four or five years. There has also been an additional change in technology since the meetings can be videotaped and posted on the Web.
ReplyDeleteHowever, some people believe that every word that trips from their lips should be recorded, which changes the whole thing from being a set of minutes to being a transcript, which actually muddies the water rather than making it clearer. And people use the minutes as a means of grand standing. That's wrong.
There have been times when people have made statements that have been put into the minutes in near verbatim form and then the speaker later claims "That's not what I said!" Well, frequently, it's not what you may have meant, but it sure is what you said.
Of course there is someone who is on the Board that keeps claiming that the minutes are necessary for the public to read. Use the video if you need that level of accuracy. The minutes are not and never were meant to be transcripts. If there is a reason why something has to go to court, trust me, the judge or the lawyers will request a verbatim transcript from the audio tapes and it will be notarized. They will not rely on the minutes as the final word.
Having said all that, there are times when the summary of the discussion IS important because otherwise, people are left wondering why on earth the Board voted AGAINST an issue or why there was a split vote and they have no context or framework to understand that vote.
As for Ms. Haynie, there have been numerous times at meetings when she had come forward with very detailed, national information and basically battered everyone there with a flood of statistics and study results. I saw it with the Race to the Top grant funding and again with a study on reading scores. I suspect that at least 98% of the people in the room hadn't a clue what she was talking about and while they are still trying to comprehend what she just said, she becomes furious because no one is getting it, therefore in her mind, they don't care or they are against whatever it is.
Guess again, Sue. They are just trying to understand whatever you just assaulted them with. Unlike you, they haven't read the lengthy statements or seen the graphs or had time to think about the issues.
And finally, those who excessively correct minutes are actually controlling and manipulating the document. The reason a third party, professional service does it is so it's neutral, people. It seems like the Board is actually starting to make an Olympic style sport out of attacking the minutes. Aren't you guys on something like your third secretary now?
Once again, trying to avoid a discussion of personalities (because, let's be serious, it has been suggested to me that sometimes I get a little prickly), the compromise might be to encourage members to submit written communications to the Board. The communication would be a part of the written record of the meeting, but there would be no discussion as to the nuances of what was (or wasn't said) when it comes time to approve the minutes for that meeting. The statistics or studies or cases or FOIA Commission findings that we want our colleagues to consider could be explained in detail.
ReplyDeleteWe save money on minutes, save time during meetings, minimize frustrations for our clerical staff (who do an often thankless job with much equanimity) and still get to create a "record" of the points we want to make.
P.S-
Very nice reference to the talented Shirley Jones/Shirley Partridge (but Marvin Gaye's version of Til There was You has a much better feel to the song).
What's going on here? A BoE communicating with the public? And civilly?
ReplyDeleteSteve has always been straight forward and willing to communicate with the public. And he does so civilly. Nothing changed there.
ReplyDeleteHis idea of submitting documents to be attached to the minutes is fine and much, much better than trying to read lengthy into the record. Reading it into the record has been done several times and people cop an attitude when the minutes don't exactly reflect whatever they said.
There have been Board members who have been rude and condenscending to the secretaries who take the minutes. For those who think they could do a better job, please try doing it some night. It's a lot harder than it looks. Or better yet, try taping the meeting and doing a transcript.
By the way, I thought the BOE settled this last December when a Board member embarrassed and humiliated someone during the meeting by giving a detailed description of how to do the job and the secretary left the meeting vowing not to come back til Hell froze over? When both the Mayor and the Superintendent of Schools have to jump in on it, that's pretty serious in my book. Now the Board is at it again??? Amazing! They should be ashamed of themselves. No one should be treated like that.
Amen to that, 6:50 a.m. I actually know one of the former record keepers who told me the exact same story.
ReplyDeleteAny chance Supt. Marks might step up and help settle this matter?
Dear Mr. Yesterday (can I call you "Ed"?):
ReplyDeleteAny chance you might switch gears to discuss the best and worst of the upcoming Board of Ed Debates?
Thanks,
Mrs. An Onymous
I've been having technical problems on the blog. I haven't been able to add a new topic since last night. I'm hoping to correct the problem today. Sorry for the delay.
ReplyDelete6.:50am - I will tell you that I was impressed with Mr. Lyons and had no clue to his opponent..perhaps its the other way around - he had no clue.
ReplyDeleteI went to the PTO Council website to check out the candidate responses. Worth reading through them (www.ptocouncil.org).
ReplyDeleteGood luck if you live in District D-- well, read their statements and you'll see for yourselves.
If you live in E, ask yourself if Mike Barbis can really be committed to being on the BoE- his signs dont mention what he's running for (kind of a red flag for me) and his website is blank (http://www.barbisforyou.com/).
9:53 a.m.-- the one thing that Mr. Puroban said that made a lot of sense was when he agreed with Mike Lyons. Other than that, there doesn't seem to be much
ReplyDelete"there" there.
1:01 p.m. -Buyer beware!! Mr. Poruban, a former Council Member, ended up in an ethical dispute with Mr. Kydes, another Council member, a few years ago and it cost the City at least $14,000 to pay for the lawyer after all the dust settled. Other than being an obvious election take down maneuver, it just didn't look good. It's all documented in the Council minutes.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but Kydes is no prize. He's a bully dressed in a suit. The way he treated the public (aka - parents ) last year during Finance Committee Hearings was disgraceful. And to quote him last night, "we keep throwing money at the BOE..." He sent his kids to private school "because it was important to have God in his house" Do you really think God would sign off on his bully attitude? Unfortunately we're probably stuck with him for the next few years.
ReplyDeleteMike Lyons did a great job at debate last night. Obviously did his homework.
So I checked out the PTO Council website to see who is running in my area (off of West Rocks).
ReplyDeleteIn this corner, wearing his best pocket t-shirt is Chairman Jack Chiaramonte, who has this to say: "I also believe in accountability from all stake holders, particularly our unions and school principles." [That's not a typo-- he wrote "principles" and not "principals"].
In this corner, suffering from amnesia, because he forgot that he was on the BoE for years, is Gregg Burnett, who penned this clever turn of a phrase: "As an active parent and citizen of Norwalk the recent concerns related to the BOE’s interaction and communication with teachers, parents, and union representatives has driven me to become part of the solution and not seat back and allow our School District to continue to deteriorate. " [Better get to MapQuest for directions for how to get from comments made at meetings to deteriorating schools-- but, beware, it's a bumpy ride.]
So, we have one guy who is convinced that "principles" and unions are the problem and his opponent who just wants to blame everyone on the Board of Ed. The one thing they have in common is a refusal to hold the superintendent accountable and a poor command of the fundamentals of English grammar.
Any chance I can just write in "Mike Lyons" and let him represent C and D?
I'm trying to get in touch with Blog Help to correct the problem of not being able to post a new topic. Thanks for your patience.
ReplyDeleteI would rather stick with the devil I know than the devil I don't know. I am voting for Jack C. because I have seen his rants and ravings, and can overlook them because he does have a good fight to him. Don;t know Greg B. but from what I have seen from the last time he was on the BOE - can't trust him.
ReplyDelete8:29 a.m.-- you just might be on to something . . . leaning to Jack C. or just a blank.
ReplyDeleteAny truth that Greg B. is an Apple?
I don't know 8:57 AM if Greg B is an Apple-- I've seen that rumored around and never saw him answer it. Makes me wonder if we want a re-tread of past Boards who doesn't understand that the people want communication.
ReplyDeleteNow we know that Jack C. likes to communicate, just ask the AP who have picked up some of his most clever little sayings over the year.
Any one looking at the Dist D fight like we did the old Iran-Iraq War?